BIG QUESTIONS FROM SMALL MINDS

Download on Apple… Spotify… Amazon Music

About The Guest: Professor Scott Bryne

Professor Scott Byrne is a professor of Immunology at the School of Medical Sciences at Sydney University.

He is also a senior researcher and co-director of the Centre for Immunology and Allergy Research at the Westmead Institute.

With a background in biology and a fascination with the human immune system, Professor Byrne has dedicated his career to studying immunology and understanding how the immune system works to fight diseases.

Summary of Episode:

We Cover the immune system, vaccines, and various diseases, including COVID-19. Professor Byrne explains that immunology is the study of the immune system and how it protects the body from diseases. He discusses the history of vaccines, the role of the immune system in fighting infections, and the challenges of developing effective vaccines.

There’s loads of questions about the immune system, vaccines, and the body’s response to diseases. Professor Byrne explains the complex processes involved in the immune response and how different cells and molecules in the body work together to fight off infections.

Scott also discusses the importance of a balanced immune system and the risks of autoimmune diseases. The episode concludes with a discussion on the effects of stress on the immune system and the role of diet in supporting immune health.

It sounds serious, but honestly, it’s lots of fun.

The Immune System: A Powerful Weapon

Immunology, as Professor Byrne explains, is the study of our immune system, how it works, and how it interacts with our body to fight off diseases and protect us from harmful invaders.

Scott highlights the importance of the immune system in recognizing and combating diseases, including autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis and psoriasis.

Professor Byrne’s research focuses on understanding the immune system’s response to diseases like COVID-19 and Epstein Barr virus.

The First Vaccine: A Historical Breakthrough

Professor Byrne enlightens us about the first vaccine discovered by Edward Jenner, who used cowpox as a mimic for smallpox.

This breakthrough paved the way for the development of vaccines that protect us from various diseases. We learn that vaccines work by stimulating our immune system to recognize and fight off specific pathogens.

The Flu Vaccine: A Yearly Ritual

One of the kids' questions is, “Why we need a flu shot every year?”

Professor Byrne explains that the flu virus undergoes changes in its genetic makeup, allowing it to evade our immune system’s memory.

This constant evolution of the flu virus necessitates the development of new vaccines each year.

Scott also mentions that the flu vaccine is not as effective as other vaccines, highlighting the ongoing research to improve its efficacy.

Understanding COVID-19: The Battle Within

Professor Byrne sheds light on what happens to our body when we contract the virus.

He explains that the virus attaches to the cells lining our upper respiratory tract and starts replicating rapidly.

Our immune system responds by sending immune cells to the site of infection, leading to the production of inflammatory molecules.

It is these molecules that often cause the symptoms associated with COVID-19.

The Link Between Sunlight and the Immune System

Professor Byrne’s research includes studying the effects of sunlight on the immune system. While sunlight is known to be a carcinogen and can suppress the immune system, he highlights the importance of sunlight in preventing autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis. He advises against deliberately exposing oneself to infectious diseases and emphasizes the significance of vaccination and good hygiene practices.

Harnessing the Power of the Immune System: Immunotherapy

Immunotherapy, a groundbreaking approach to treating diseases like cancer, is the focus of Professor Byrne’s research. He explains that immunotherapy aims to activate the immune system to recognize and fight cancer cells. By harnessing the power of our immune system, immunotherapy offers a promising alternative to traditional cancer treatments.

The Role of Macrophages: The Big Eaters

Macrophages, as Professor Byrne describes, are immune cells that play a crucial role in our body’s defense against infections. These “big eaters” engulf bacteria, viruses, parasites, and fungi, effectively removing them from our system. However, macrophages eventually die after fulfilling their duty, and their remnants are excreted from our body.

The Impact of Diet on the Immune System

The conversation takes an interesting turn as we discuss the link between diet and the immune system. Professor Byrne reveals that the cells of our immune system require energy to function effectively. A diet rich in fiber is particularly beneficial for our immune system. Malnutrition, both in terms of quantity and quality of food, is the most common form of immunodeficiency.

The Intriguing World of Immunology: A Future Outlook

As we conclude our conversation with Professor Byrne, we reflect on the fascinating insights we have gained into the world of immunology. The immune system, a powerful weapon against diseases, continues to be a subject of extensive research and exploration. From the discovery of vaccines to the potential of immunotherapy, the future of immunology holds immense promise in improving human health and well-being.

TRANSCRIPT

00:02 Hello and welcome to Big Questions from Small Minds, the podcast where we ask professors questions that seem too massive, too complicated or even stupid. We also have lots of intelligent questions. No, not ours. They’re questions from actual small minds, children’s. Bill, what’s on the agenda? Tom, today’s topic is immunology or the immune system. Think COVID, getting a flu, viruses, all that jazz. So, does an apple a day really keep the doctor away?

00:31 Or does it depend on how hard you throw the apple at them? Today we’re talking with Professor Scott Byrne, Professor of Immunology at the School of Medical Sciences at Sydney University. He’s also Senior Researcher and Co-Director of the Centre for Immunology and Allergy Research at the Westmead Institute. Immunology is the rock star of science people. It has guided us through some very troubling times. The COVID pandemic was devastating for many people. But in those dark days,

01:01 We banded together and we did what we had to. We stayed at home and watched Netflix. Ha ha ha ha ha. How does your brain work? What will the world be like in a hundred years if we don’t fix climate change? Why do I have to sleep? Can robots have emotions? Big questions from small minds. Scott, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s my pleasure. When you were a kid, were you always fascinated with germs? No.

01:29 Actually, when I was a kid, I wanted to be an astrophysicist, but then I started to learn about biology and the human immune system. And I had some terrific lecturers who excited me about the role of the immune system and how it can be an extraordinarily powerful weapon. So instead of a telescope, you went with the microscope. Yeah, that’s good. I like that. Can we just start with something easy and tell us what immunology is?

01:56 Gosh, that’s starting with an easy one at all. Immunology is the study of our immune system, how it works, how it interacts with our body, how it learns to recognise and fight disease and how it can protect us from getting other diseases. Autoimmune diseases, for example, like multiple sclerosis or psoriasis or Crohn’s disease. And that’s the type of work that my group does a lot of research on. In history, when was the first vaccine discovered?

02:26 Oh, jeez. The first vaccine was by Edward Jenner on smallpox. And in fact, he used cowpox as a mimic, I suppose, of smallpox. And he would put a little bit of the cowpox on people’s skin to immunize them, essentially, to smallpox. And he found that he was able to protect them from other pox diseases in that way. That’s really weird because of the two, cowpox and smallpox, smallpox sounds like the better one to have. Cowpox seems like you just end up as a cow.

02:55 being on? No, that was utterly well crafted. I’ve got a kids question. What does your immune system look like? Well that’s a terrific question. When I’m lecturing my university students I’ll ask them to stand up and point to their immune system and not many of them could do it initially. That sounds like a trick question. The trick answer I suppose is that the immune system is everywhere.

03:23 And that’s actually one of the aspects of the immune system that makes it extraordinarily powerful. It can be anywhere and everywhere and it can move around. And that’s actually what makes it extraordinarily powerful. So it’s necessary for us to be able to locate an infection or a tumor and recognize that it’s not supposed to be there, recognize that it’s foreign.

03:45 and to respond appropriately to that. I’m imagining like a Cold War era thing with like alarms going off and going, boo, woo, and your lymph nodes go boo. And all these like little emergency immune system workers running around fighting the invaders, shooting them down. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what Scott just said. So just out of curiosity, so if you cut yourself on your pinky finger on your left hand, does the lymph node and the system flow to that direction or is it like, is it more of a targeted area or is it just

04:15 just also get the path infected.

04:30 and they will go in and they’ll gobble up any of the bacteria or viruses that might be present. And then some of the special cells in the skin will then go, Oh, I need to alert the rest of the immune system to the presence of this invader. You might have a bacterial infection that’s starting to develop. Well, the cells inside the skin, they’re called dendritic cells and they’re called dendritic cells because they have these dendrites, which are literally arms that reach out and grab the… Like octopuses? Like octopuses. Yeah. Wow. And so they reach out, they grab them, and then they decide, Oh, I’ve got to get to the rest of the immune system.

05:00 tell them all about this pathogen that I’ve encountered in the periphery, right, in the skin where the infection is. And so they travel via the vessels that are in the body, lymphatic vessels, and they drain all the way to the lymph nodes. In this case, they’ll drain to the lymph nodes that are underneath the arm. So if you cut yourself on your pinky, it runs all the way up your arm into your armpit. That’s it. And there, it’ll display the bacteria that it’s encountered in the pinky.

05:25 And it will say, Hey, does anyone recognize this? It has a little meeting with the other. It does. Hey ladies and gentlemen, I got something to talk about. Look what I found. I found a new discovery. It’s germs. Exactly. Right. And the specialized cells of the immune system will then go, Hey, I recognize that and I’m able to respond to that and they will activate the cells. Cells will become an army of clones and fight off the infection more effectively. Wow. Pretty amazing. That sounds like a plot out of Star Wars.

05:54 We shot every year. Great questions. There are two main reasons. The first is each year we have what’s called seasonal flu. So the flu just changes its look just enough in order for our immune system to think it hasn’t seen it before. So it’s basically coming back in with a disguise. It’s got like a mustache and glasses on. It’s like, hello, I’m Jeremy.

06:18 Second reason is probably because the flu vaccine is not one of the most effective vaccines. So the immune system is forgetful? That’s not a bad way to think of it. Why does part of your body start hurting when you get a flu vaccine? Basically when you get a vaccine, let’s say the flu vaccine, what you’re getting is you’re getting little pieces of the flu, not the flu itself, but little pieces of the virus, but that in itself is not enough. What you need is you need a bit of a push to the immune system.

06:47 in order for it to be alerted. Now that aspect of the vaccine is probably the part that makes us feel a little bit sick. And it’s that part though, that is actually probably the most important part for vaccines to work properly. What happens to the special juice inside the needle when it gets injected into your body? So the fluid does not necessarily go all around the body.

07:14 It tends to stay in the muscle where it’s injected and it gets picked up by the cells in the muscle. They’ll pick up those vaccine pieces and they will go off to the lymph nodes and they will alert the immune system to the fact that they need to mount a response to this particular vaccine that you’ve received. What is the most dangerous sickness to have? The most dangerous sickness is the one that will kill you. Good answer. Well done.

07:42 So Scott, what kind of viruses are you fighting now? We’re looking at two particular viruses. We’re working hard on understanding the response that we make to COVID-19 so that we can identify individuals who respond really well and those who don’t respond really well understanding why is that. So the other vaccine we’re working on is called Epstein-Barr virus. Epstein-Barr virus is responsible for what’s called kissing disease, glandular fever. I think Tom said that a few times actually.

08:12 Well, that’s how you get further in life people. So would it be wrong to say that you’re in the business of germ warfare? Um, personally, uh, probably best to say no, just in case. No I wouldn’t. No, that’s not the focus of my research. When we think of the immune system, we automatically think of the response we make to bacteria and viruses. But actually the immune system is being designed to protect us.

08:41 from autoimmune diseases to essentially make sure that the immune system doesn’t attack our own cells. Because if it does that, that can lead to devastating consequences. There are some well-known cases of where the immune system doesn’t work properly. For example, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis. This is where the patient’s immune system starts to turn on the cells of the body. So it’s a fine balance between fighting off infections

09:10 but ensuring that you don’t kill your own cells. What happens to your body when you get COVID? So the first thing that happens is the virus will attach to the cells lining the upper respiratory tract. So that is the nasal passages. That grabs you by the throat. Exactly, good one.

09:33 And it latches onto the cells and it enters the cells and it starts to replicate as quickly as it possibly can because it wants to replicate itself and it uses our cells to do that. And that’s why we swab the back of the nasal passage in the throat because that’s where the virus is going to be at its highest and where it’s replicating. So then the immune system becomes alerted to it very quickly.

09:53 And it’s in fact the immune system that is probably responsible for most of the problems associated with COVID. Because you start to get those cells, just like when you get an infection in the pinky, you start to get those cells coming out of the blood vessels in the lungs and the upper spirit tract and they start to respond to the viral infection. The trouble is they can’t deal with it quickly enough and so they start to produce all of the things that they’ve been told to produce, these inflammatory molecules. And it’s these inflammatory molecules which often lead to the problems that people have.

10:23 when they get COVID. Well, it’s sounding more and more like the immune system’s just out to get us in one way or the other. Well, I’ve got a question for you. Oh, okay. Would you like to not have an immune system then? No, I’m pretty sure I’m good with one, but I’ve got a counter question for you. So there are two types of immune system. There’s a reactive and the other one, adaptive. One is like a fast acting, like, this is the bad guys are in here, let’s punch them out in the face. And the other one is like a slower kind of like, we remember this bad guy from last time.

10:53 If you could only have one, which one would you have? You’d have the adaptive. And we know this because when we look at patients who don’t have an adaptive immune response, they are highly susceptible to developing opportunistic infections. So a classic case was David Vetter. He was colloquially known as the bubble boy. So he had what is called X-linked SCID, a severe combined immunodeficiency syndrome. And essentially he couldn’t make the cells of the adaptive immune system.

11:23 rely almost completely on his innate immune system. He had to live in a specially constructed sterile environment, a bubble. Because if he came into contact with infections, he wouldn’t be able to deal with them properly. Because the innate immune system, as you say, comes in punching and quickly, but it can’t adapt to the pathogen. And so what we need to keep us healthy is long-lived memory responses that can protect us over long periods of time. Well, my dad’s got a theory. He reckons when he gets sick…

11:50 The best cure to make him feel better is to sit out in the sunshine. Now, is this possibly true? One of the areas that I’ve been working on for a long time is to understand the effects that sunlight has on our immune system. We know that sunlight is a very, very effective carcinogen, which means that it can cause cancer and of course skin cancers are a massive problem in Australia. But what perhaps people don’t understand also is that sunlight suppresses our immune system.

12:19 And you might think, why would you want to suppress your immune system? Well, again, it comes back to that concept of making sure that the immune system doesn’t kill you, making sure the immune system doesn’t lead to autoimmune diseases. And we know that in some people who don’t get enough sunlight, this can increase their risk of developing autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis. So back to your question from your dad, maybe not such a good idea, because actually we want to boost our immune system. And if the sunlight is suppressing it.

12:47 That’s not going to be the best thing for that. I’m going to relish the next family lunch we have. I also have another study in which you were giving mice UV radiation in a laboratory. But my biggest question, how long did you spend putting the bikinis on the mice? We do have to shave the mice. We do have to remove their hair with an electric shaver so that we can expose the skin. And so if I was a first year uni student, is that my job? Shaving mice for eight hours a day?

13:17 It could be. Were you looking for a job?

13:23 Why can’t I punch COVID? Well, you can. You let your immune system do it. So if you think of your immune system as part of you, then you just let the immune system do the punching. Scott, so you’re a dad, right? I am. I’ve got three kids. And you’re an immunologist. Do your kids ever get to chuck a sickie?

13:44 No, not in the slightest. Okay. So you don’t have any tips for other kids? No tips there. Sorry kids. We’ll give you the powers for evil on the next podcast. In order for a virus to reach pandemic stages like this, it needs to undergo changes in its DNA, in its genetic makeup.

14:12 in order to acquire a number of those things that we talked about. The ability to to to jump from human to human or first of all, the ability to jump from animal to human and then from human to human. And luckily, not many viruses get to do that. Does it change DNA when it jumps? Well, it can acquire those mutations in a new host. Yes. So this is why we get variants.

14:33 Uh, in, in the shrimp from human to human transmission, we get the, um, arrival of new variants like alpha, beta, Omicron, and these, these mutations are random and so because they’re random, sometimes that will lead to more success. Other times it won’t lead to success. So we’ve had swine flu, we’ve had bird flu, we’ve had mad cow disease. Is the animal kingdom trying to kill us?

14:58 I think we’ve done a pretty good job of trying to kill them over the years, right? So maybe it’s getting our just desserts. This is not a political podcast.

15:07 When Mummy got cancer, why did she need chemo? Why didn’t her body stop the cancer? Yeah. So, oh gosh, okay. Mummy’s still alive, buddy. Yeah, okay. Mummy’s in remission and she’s fine. Yes, so the reason cancers develop is because they undergo what is called uncontrolled cell division. So they just divide.

15:35 and divide and divide and they do it without all the checks and balances that would normally be in place. The immune system is the part of the body that’s designed to stop the cancer. The problem is that the cancer cells can look almost identical to non-cancerous cells. And so the immune system can often struggle to tell the difference between a cancer cell and a normal cell.

16:02 And what we’re trying to do now is we’re trying to develop new types of chemotherapy, new drugs called immunotherapy, which target the immune system and say, Hey, there’s your cancer cell. We’ll tell you, we’ll give you the instructions you need to tell the difference between cancer cells and normal cells. And those new immune cells that are becoming activated will go in and fight off the cancer cells. And it’s proving to be an extraordinarily effective treatment for cancer. You’re really just harnessing the power that your body already has. You are. And just giving it a push in the right direction.

16:32 Exactly. My question about the immune system is what is the white blood cells weapons made of? The short answer is their proteins. These are molecules that the cells produce and they excrete them. So one of the white blood cells is called a B cell and the B cell will produce something that’s called an antibody.

16:56 And the antibody is the protein that the B cell produces that helps to protect us from infections. In the other type of white blood cells called a T cell. And a T cell will produce different types of proteins which actually responsible for killing their targets. So you have what’s called a cytotoxic T cell. Cytotoxic means cell killer, and it’s like an assassin.

17:19 And it produces these protein bullets that can puncture the membranes of their targets. And at least to the death of the cell. So when you get a viral infection, or if you’ve got a cancer cell that you want to kill, then you want one of these cytotoxic T cells to go in and do it. There is a lot of death going on today, people. And so if you took an antibiotic shot and also a probiotic drink, what would happen? Is it just civil war from the belly button down?

17:46 You wouldn’t waste your money on taking a probiotic if you’re also taking antibiotics, because the antibiotics would just kill off all of the probiotics as well. Wasted my money. Wait a few days till the antibiotics are gone and then maybe take some probiotics. Illnesses, right? They strike everyone everywhere in an inopportune moment. When you have loads of work going on and you’re really struggling for deadlines and you’re trying to make it and you’ve got to go on holidays and you want to get all this stuff out of the way, you’ve finally reached your goal. You get everything through and then you’re on holidays.

18:14 and you suddenly come down with a flu. Is it we’re postponing our illness or we’re putting it off until we’ve got time? It does. And I’ve been affected by that myself. I think what you’re getting at here is the link between stress and our immune system, and we know that those two are very closely linked. We don’t fully understand what those links are. We know, for example, that serotonin is an important molecule for our mental well-being.

18:43 And the cells of our immune system actually have receptors for serotonin. So why would they have receptors for serotonin, for example? That’s crazy. Your immune system knows when you’re happy. It does. And it knows when you’re stressed. So what that means in terms of, you know, does the immune system know that you’re working to a deadline? No, is the short answer, but it is just responding to the neurotransmitters that your body is producing. So would it be possible to just battle a raging tiger forever? And

19:12 Not get sick. Keep it a go. That’s a long wait. If you’re a Monday and Friday battling tiger. You’re definitely sick on the weekend then.

19:23 What does your immune system do with food? That’s a really good question. So the immune system is probably one of the most energy intensive systems in our body. And the reason why is because it needs to create those antibodies, it needs to create those protein bullets that the T cells use, but also the cells need to divide into a clonal army.

19:45 So every time you basically create a new cell, you need to get the energy from somewhere. So the cells of our immune system, don’t go into the stomach and pick up all the food, they actually use the food that we eat. So the most common form of immunodeficiency on the planet is malnutrition. Oh, wow.

20:05 And malnutrition isn’t just about not having enough food, it’s also not having the right types of food. We know, for example, that a diet that is rich in fiber is really good for our immune system, absolutely loves a high fiber diet, keep the immune system happy by eating the right types of food. And so yeah, food, diet and the immune system are very, very linked. Now this might sound crazy, but is it a little bit like those people that get like a poo transplant?

20:35 No, so with a fecal transplant, I don’t like the idea that someone’s putting poo in your stomach. They are, it’s what it is. It won’t go in your stomach, it’ll go the other way. Although some people are trying to develop ways to create a pill that will not get dissolved until it goes into the intestine, rather than the stomach. But what you’re getting is actually the microbiome of the donor.

21:03 I just wanted to talk about the poo spoon. Yeah, I know exactly where you’re going. I know I’m getting you for Christmas, the poo spoon. Ooh, I’m getting you a poo pill. The different germs have different macrophages to eat them. So macrophages, they’re really, really important immune cells in our body.

21:22 And it comes from two Greek words, macro meaning large and phage meaning eater, so that they are big eaters, they’re big cells and they, they like to eat lots of things and they sit there and they wait for infections to come along. We’ve just, we’re covered in just sleeping pack. Pretty much. You’ll be happy to have them though, because their job is to remove bacteria.

21:42 and viruses and parasites and fungi when you come into contact with them. Inside them they have things that can break down these bacteria and viruses effectively and remove them, kill them. And so when you get an infection, cells in our blood will come out into the infection and some of them will become macrophages. And their job, as their name suggests, is to eat up all of the dead and dying and also the bacteria and viruses that are there. And so when they fall, do these guys poop things out? Yeah, I’ve got some bad news for you. They actually end up dying.

22:12 And then we excrete them. That is an unsung hero. So for kids interested in getting into immunology, would you recommend that they collect their snot? With my kids, I always tell them to make sure they get rid of their snot and wash their hands. Prevention is a terrific way to stop us getting sick. You heard it here. Flick those boogers, kids. And don’t get infected, I think is the big message there.

22:37 Do I lick more things that my immune system gets stronger? There is a short answer to that. And that is no. Exposing yourself to infectious diseases deliberately is not the way to keep you healthy. Protecting yourself from getting the disease is the answer. There are two ways you do that. You either get vaccinated if there’s a vaccine available, and if there’s not, then you practice good hygiene. Just wash your hands, get the jab. Yep. Cool. Tick. Scott, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and telling us how you fight diseases.

23:06 But I have to say this despite all your best efforts to stop the spread, we’re really hoping this episode goes viral. Links to everything that we’ve talked about today can be found at smallminds.au. Keep curious people and keep asking the big questions.